Curse

Myria · Dec 09, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

They are not in any way biased. Any number generation technique that is biased, is no longer random.

You'll hopefully forgive me for noting the circularity of that logic :).

GW almost certainly uses a PRNG, hopefully we can all agree on that. PRNGs are inherently 'broken', in that they are inherently periodic functions. Beyond that it's all speculation. Badly coded PRNGs, of which there have been many, have been noted for displaying bias, among other sins, but whether or not GW's PRNG commits any sins beyond not being truly random is something none of us will probably ever know.

jonnybegood · Dec 09, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

didnt make this post because the dude got 3 greens

Quote:

this post was made to outline the drop rates and allocation and how fukd up they are.

huh??

JGaff · Dec 09, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I think we've all been on the recieving end here. I've had days where I'll net a black dye or a crappy gold, but I have terrible luck. Whenever I'm in the fissure, ten shards might drop and I'll see none of them.

Final split usually looks like this (out of all personalities)...

Trash Talking Wammo: 2 shards + a gold drop
Nuker Ele: 2 Shards
Confused Healing Breeze Monk: 1 shard + Good Chest Item
Hard Working Mesmer: Dust...whites...maybe a purple on a good day
Barrage Ranger: Shard +Ruby

I'd love to see a system where players could be rewarded for actually helping the group instead of wasting three hours for about 1k in crap (Not exactly rolling on greens per se, but better than a glut for one player)

Franco Power · Dec 09, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

lmao

I love the fact how you dissed a Warrior,the monk and when you said "barrage" ranger I knew you were just trying to say rangers dont do anything else besides barrage.

Then you put yourself as "Hard Working Mesmer", dude the drops are random, get over it.

Oh and to the thread starter, same to you, drops are random, get over it.

KamikazeChicken · Dec 09, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Just do it with hench and heroes. Send the hench/heroes off screen when you kill the Darkness, and you'll get all drops. >.>

Mr_T_bot · Dec 09, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I've said it before and I will say it again. The drop system is a bunch of half-blind drunken monkey's handing out the items to party members. That is the only way to account for this horrible system.

JGaff · Dec 09, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

lmao

I love the fact how you dissed a Warrior,the monk and when you said "barrage" ranger I knew you were just trying to say rangers dont do anything else besides barrage.

Then you put yourself as "Hard Working Mesmer", dude the drops are random, get over it.

Oh and to the thread starter, same to you, drops are random, get over it.

I'm exaggerating for an effect. If I didn't make generalization as to why some people might get frustrated (It's a bit harder to interupt WoH with a spell Power Spike while getting whacked by Shadow Warriors with your 60al than you might realize), It'd be a less colorful reply . Obviously that point is a debate for another thread, but regardless, when your team takes you for granted and gloats over awesome drops, I know I'd be disheartened. I mean, If I got a dollar for everytime someone went Leeroy and survived (while getting shards and such) because a monk or another member of the team managed to control the ensuing crisis (Yes, I've even seen a Mesmer take the plunge before), I'd cover a tank of gas for awhile.

Point taken folks?

Zehnchu · Dec 09, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

lmao

I love the fact how you dissed a Warrior,the monk and when you said "barrage" ranger I knew you were just trying to say rangers dont do anything else besides barrage.

Then you put yourself as "Hard Working Mesmer", dude the drops are random, get over it.

Oh and to the thread starter, same to you, drops are random, get over it.

It being random isn’t the point there is a significant difference assignment of drop between melee and casters, meaning the loot isn’t being distrusted equally amongst the team. Before I go on, we know there’s a problem with this why else would Anet ask to post information about what class, character born, area that this problem has been occurring.

Y.T. · Dec 09, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velvet Wing

keep it friendly guys.. please...
I've seen some weird drops myself, but since they are completely random, there is absolutely no point in discussing, fighting over, complaining about about this at all

well evrbdy knows (i hope) that if its coded its not random, u do have to understand that u cant make computer generate random numbers, it can be relatively close (or not close enough), but not random...

math in school ftw

Antheus · Dec 09, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

You'll hopefully forgive me for noting the circularity of that logic

.

GW almost certainly uses a PRNG, hopefully we can all agree on that. PRNGs are inherently 'broken', in that they are inherently periodic functions. Beyond that it's all speculation. Badly coded PRNGs, of which there have been many, have been noted for displaying bias, among other sins, but whether or not GW's PRNG commits any sins beyond not being truly random is something none of us will probably ever know.

Ok, let me try to illustrate this differently.

when loot_dropped assign_to_group_member(random(8))

If you can develop a random function that will show bias towards a specific group member only and only in case of green and gold drops, then props to you.

But beyond that, there is simply no feasible way for any kind of bias to show in loot assignments.

Rather than worrying about obscure number theory fundamentals, how about working out the chances of assigning 3 items to 8 people?

It's surprising. Very surprising.

Mr_T_bot · Dec 09, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

But beyond that, there is simply no feasible way for any kind of bias to show in loot assignments.

In a game there is no appreciable difference between loot bias and poor randomization.

In a game like this where no party loot choice exists, the engine should be round robin, period.

Franco Power · Dec 09, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGaff

I'm exaggerating for an effect. If I didn't make generalization as to why some people might get frustrated (It's a bit harder to interupt WoH with a spell Power Spike while getting whacked by Shadow Warriors with your 60al than you might realize), It'd be a less colorful reply . Obviously that point is a debate for another thread, but regardless, when your team takes you for granted and gloats over awesome drops, I know I'd be disheartened. I mean, If I got a dollar for everytime someone went Leeroy and survived (while getting shards and such) because a monk or another member of the team managed to control the ensuing crisis (Yes, I've even seen a Mesmer take the plunge before), I'd cover a tank of gas for awhile.

Point taken folks?

My first character was a mesmer, i've beaten Prophecies/Factions with him, dont think you're the only person in GW that uses a mesmer

.

If you saying power spiking a spell is hard then dont come here and whine about it, if you looking for a easy class to play

Frenzy, Healing signet, Healing Hands, Mending

FeroxC · Dec 09, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

You see what happens is, the computer cant realy create truly random numbers so most the time they use an algorithm to create the number based on a seed number.

To get the seed number they often use functions like this:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...ttickcount.asp
GetTickCount

The return value is the number of milliseconds that have elapsed since the system was started.

So what happens when you kill aload of monsters at the same time ? same seed so the same number is "randomly generated" oh look he got all the greens.

However i doubt the monsters died at the exact same time he probably just got lucky

Mr_T_bot · Dec 09, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

You see what happens is, the computer cant realy create truly random numbers so most the time they use an algorithm to create the number based on a seed number.

To get the seed number they often use functions like this:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...ttickcount.asp
GetTickCount

The return value is the number of milliseconds that have elapsed since the system was started.

So what happens when you kill aload of monsters at the same time ? same seed so the same number is "randomly generated" oh look he got all the greens.

However i doubt the monsters died at the exact same time he probably just got lucky

Or the system is crap.

I have never seen such a ridiculous system in any game I have played, and I have played some pretty ridiculous games.

Phaern Majes · Dec 09, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

As for the ectos, ToPK was never intended for massive ecto drop see the UW for that. Frankly, I'm surprised they even added ectos to ToPK.

Dev121 · Dec 09, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Not Complaint , because I dont farm

.
I guess the system has never been really liked but theres only two choices to what they can do :

Keep it the same , everything is really fair and random maybe add a few more rare drops here and there.

Totaly change the whole system and drop rates , if they increased the drops of rares and rare materials however the prices would drop and fow ect would become like 15k armor .

Personally I couldnt care

, doesnt worry me , instead of worrying about drops if your really goldless , get a collector bow and have some fun

.

ectospasm · Dec 09, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

nice. two pages already...

Adding with what devaney stated on the fow armor.

I dont want Fow cause it sucks. But for those who do want it it will take all of thier time playing GW only doing UW group runs or attempting to duo it. 95% of the people playing cant duo UW nor solo it. They have to do FoW groups. At the current drop rates it will take an estimated 80-240 runs (depending on luck of the PRNG) in UW and FOW in order to get the amount of ecto and shards needed to craft the armor. If you had to pay for your share of the entry fee if a group thats 20-60k again based on how lucky you are getting drops again. Add that plus time + 15k x 5 + other crafting materials= you totally wasted so much time and money. No wonder people buy thier gwgold from web sites because it is much quicker, you actually save money by buying it due to the time you didnt have to spend playing and paying. So all you gotta do is get in a group, have all your materials with you (since you can afford to buy ecto and shards from the trader) do the forgemaster quest and wa-la. You have your FoW armor.
Yet anet want to nerf farming builds and Ai and leave extremely hard processes like getting fow armor as it is, only fueling the fire under those desperate for thier leet armor. I dont get it.

Also, I was going to sell an axe to someone who only had 124k I sold him a cheaper one instead. The next day he had 4x that amount and was ready to buy the expensive one. I think he farmed it overnight, dont you?...

Cyan The Archer · Dec 09, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

So many players who fail to read between the lines(think outside the box?) whatever the line is...
The OP is not annoyed and jealous that he didnt get the 3 greens, but by the fact that its completely random. You spend 2 hours or more clearing an area, hoping for a decent reward, but the drop rate is random. The 3 bosses in Tombs drops 3 greens each 3x3=9. All the players in the party could have gotten a green each and one 2 greens, but they dont, which is unfair.

Why do you think Anet gave a each player on a team a Gemstone if they complete one of the quests? Because they worked their asses off completing it and deserves a reward.

CyberNigma · Dec 10, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

strcpy (did he change his name to srncpy yet? :-) and I just had a big long spill in another thread about random and patterns and what we think. it really didn't change anything (I started it) as Gaile came in and just told everyone its random anyways. I don't think talking about random or not random is going to change anything if they believe that it is (maybe those of us that think it isn't so random are wrong). if you want it to change, go to the sardelac (suggestion) forum and start a thread asking for it to NOT be random. ask them to spread the loot out evenly or something like that (perhaps still the type of drop being random or something). lots of threads have shown that no complaining about the randomness (including me) will change anything. you should ask ANet to make it what they would consider non-random in some way. you're right, if you go through all that then a roleplaying game (not a game of chance like dice) should reward everyone.

EDIT: Sorry op, I know you weren't complaining about it being random, but I threw that part in there about random for everyone's viewing pleasure since it always comes up. at least spreading them out before doubling them up on characters would be nice.

floppinghog · Dec 10, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

if it makes you feel any better.... i've done 8 full Deep runs and well, i never got 1. NOT ONE green from kanaxai.... and some groups were short 3-2 ppl
(first completion was a group of 6 only - lost half the party due to a number of reasons)
when we actually killed him too (meaning not all 8 runs were a full party of 12).

unlike your tombs visit for older greens, i lost out of expensive greens 8 times (oh and remembering one of them the same guy got 2 of the 3 possible greens at once, talk about lame?).